A useful survey, just what I wanted

This course is a good survey-refresher. It is an ambitious endeavor to attempt to teach this subject in only 24 lectures.

Any of the following lecture subjects provides more than enough material for a course (or lengthy book) of its own:

1. Italy, a geographical expression.

2. The question of sovereignity.

3. The crusades and Italian wealth.

4. Venice: a maritime republic.

5. Terraferma Empire.

6. Genoa: La Superba.

7. Bankers and dukes.

8. Pisa.

9. Christians vs. Turks in the Mediterranean.

10. Rome: papal authority.

11. Papal ambition.

12. Papal reform

13. Naples: a matter of wills.

14. Naples and the threat to Italian liberty.

15. Milan and the Visconti.

16. The Sforza dynasty.

17. Mantua and the Gonzaga.

18. Urbino and the Montefeltro.

19. Ferrara and the Este family.

20. Siena and the struggle for liberty.

21. Florence and the guild republic.

22. Florence and the Medici.

23. The Italian mosaic: E Pluribus Gloria.

24. Campanilismo: The Italian sense of place.

27 people found this helpful

European political history taken to the next level

Where does The Italians before Italy: Conflict and Competition in the Mediterranean rank among all the audiobooks you’ve listened to so far?

This is a higher level, more in depth study than most of The Great Courses on Audible. I suppose it ranks lower than others on the "entertaining" scale, but higher on the depth of information scale.

What other book might you compare The Italians before Italy: Conflict and Competition in the Mediterranean to and why?

Other related series by the great courses would include Foundations of Western Civilization I & II (both excellent), Europe and Western Civilization in the Modern Age, and The Middle Ages series: Early Middle Ages, High Middle Ages, Late Middle Ages

Have you listened to any of Professor Kenneth R. Bartlett’s other performances before? How does this one compare?

Professor Bartlett also teaches The Great Courses series on European Civilization and the Italian Renaissance, plus their video series The Great Tours: Experiencing Medieval Europe. He is extremely knowledgeable. The other courses are less focused on the political evolution of Italy and more focused on civilization, art, and historic sites. It all depends on what you're interested in.

Was this a book you wanted to listen to all in one sitting?

No. This is a long and detailed title with 24 lectures. I listened to about an hour a day over a couple of weeks.

Any additional comments?

This is a series for those who know European history and want to delve deeper re the politics of the Italian city states. Prof. Bartlett assumes that the listener knows European history, particularly of the middle ages. It is assumed you already know about the Byzantines, the Holy Roman Empire, the Turkish empire, the royal houses of Anjou, Habsburg, etc. With that as background, this series provides a survey of all the city states and their political (more than cultural) evolution, particularly vis a vis their relationships with Rome and the rest of Europe.

23 people found this helpful

Could've Used More Culture + Color

There is a lot of detailed information here, but it is very dry: old-school history focused on political and military matters – to the exclusion of all else.

Professor Bartlett has a difficult task, as Italy between the fall of Rome and the Risorgimento was divided into many states, each with their own history and identity. He chooses to organize these lectures regionally more than chronologically. This has its drawbacks: many historical figures (like the Borgias) or international events (like the Plague) appear in the narrative of multiple states, and so we hear about them again and again, but only in little snippets each time – it can be disorienting.

This approach would make much more sense if he spent any time describing the states' individual cultures – he says over and over again that they were unique, but does little to illustrate what made them distinct beyond political organization. When he does mention something cultural, it's still dry: he might say that the Sienese developed their own painting style, but not say anything about what that style was or what made it special.

The lectures are also strangely limited in chronological scope: the (500+ year!) period between the fall of Rome and the first crusade is quickly glossed over (a single lecture!), and the lectures largely stop at the 16th century, long before Italian unification.

10 people found this helpful

Disappointing take on an amazing subject

It is not easy to produce a neutral critic for a book/course that disappointed you, without sounding influence by your emotion, but I'll try to do my best. It was also not my point to hurt Professor Bartlett, though my review might be harsh on him.

PERFORMANCE:
Compared to other Great Courses on Historical topics, the performance of "The Italians before Italy" is average. Though Professor Bartlett can be understood without trouble, he has the habit of breathing heavily and often. This tends to make it sound like he is not pleased of talking, which is a bit weird. This is added to the very descriptive way the course is made, and results in classes that don't have any thrill.
On a subject as fascinating as this one, this is a huge drawback I think.

STORY:
Let me be clear: the topic is absolutely fascinating. Though complex, the Italian Cities History is incredible and thrilling, due to the multiple events that happen during the middle-age, and the diversity of each location.
The way the course is built however is, in my opinion, the wrong way to go at it. The Professor decided to follow each location separately. This means that the timeline starts again at each new city, and impairs on the connection between each others. The impact on crusades for example is shown as the utmost importance for Venice and Genoa, but it barely appears for Rome.
There is also a lack of information provided in the written notes provided with the audiobook. There is no map, even though it is precised multiple times by Professor Bartlett how geography impacted on each city's character. The timeline is a joke, to say the least, being crammed with bits of information.
A (way) better way to do this course would have required to do a general timeline class for the first classes, then describing the cities by region, and go back to the timeline at the end to add more details.

COURSE QUALITY:
The main drawback I have though is the course quality. I have serious issues on how the Professor gives his personal opinion while talking about History, from using a very positive vision towards the papacy and avoiding the inner corruption in Rome during this time period (one of the main reason why the Reformation happened), to being in awe in front of totalitarian regime. Constant critics of republican system was also annoying, specifically the more the course advances.
I was also surprised how the Professor talked about people as if he knew them, even though we only know what has been written about them (and usually, following their orders). As an historian, it should be your duty to bring doubts on the information you get from the past. This is clearly not the case here.
Finally, the last two classes were the most annoying, in the fact that they were the Professor's personal geo-political analysis, which I found unprofessional in a History Class. Not to mention that he described and commented on today's politics based on middle-age ground, while barely mentioning the events of WWI and WWII, as if these didn't impact the country. I don't mind Professor's Bartlett having a different opinion than mind, but he should not be using his class to push his own political analysis, especially when it is clearly missing elements.
And I would also add that his description on Italian behavior, to be connected to the village of your birth, is something you find not only in Italy but in almost all countries of Europe. Either the professor has never traveled in other countries than Italy, or he on purposely wanted to give a specific Italian trait - in any case, the last class is a simple annoyance.

As a whole, I am upset that on a subject so interesting, the quality was not up to what the Great Courses can produce.

8 people found this helpful

Great prep for a 2-week trip to Italy

History with context!

The professor has a superb job putting everything in context. Italy is such a complex place which such a diverse set of historical drivers, and so it's tough to do right.

Most tour guide histories are just a list of "then this happened, then this king did this."

In contrast, this professor ably articulates the trends and particulars, so that the names, places, and events make sense.

8 people found this helpful

Great course with some redundancy

Would you consider the audio edition of The Italians before Italy: Conflict and Competition in the Mediterranean to be better than the print version?

No. With so much information contained in these lectures, one cannot properly gain enough knowledge without some written material. Simple things like, how the names are spelled and which dates related to what events/figures are just part of the reason why written text is necessary for learning history.

Would you recommend The Italians before Italy: Conflict and Competition in the Mediterranean to your friends? Why or why not?

Yes and no. See my comment below.

What does Professor Kenneth R. Bartlett bring to the story that you wouldn’t experience if you just read the book?

N/A.

Was this a book you wanted to listen to all in one sitting?

No.

Any additional comments?

After I listened to his “The Italian Renaissance”, I became a big fan of Professor Bartlett. History could be full of wars, names and dates tend to be pretty boring, but Bartlett has managed to keep audience interested by personalizing the historical figures, their background, character, journey in the way that you and I can related. He also provided various aspects of the Italian culture that we still can see today when we visit the country. In so doing, ancient history becomes highly relevant to today’s Italy and Italians.

One thing I am not entirely satisfied with this course is that there are a number of chapters seem to be directly copied from his “The Italian Renaissance”, or vise versa. The material is all great, but if you purchase one, the other doesn’t seem to add much value.

Another thing I am unhappy about it is the fact that the lack of course outlines in the Great Course series. With the huge amount of information delivered in these lectures, some written material will be most helpful for the students to review and solidify what’s learned. I will have to buy his written book as a suppliment.

8 people found this helpful

Don't Bother

Would you recommend this book to a friend? Why or why not?

No.

What was most disappointing about The Great Courses’s story?

The professor is very long winded. He obviously cares about the topic but most of the material is opinions. He tells you how important and unique the story of Italy is but, if after five chapters, I've only learned ten minutes of material, I don't really care.

What three words best describe Professor Kenneth R. Bartlett’s voice?

Not bad. He sighs a lot and his pronunciation of words like peninsula- which he says every five minutes as peninchula-
and fragmentation are distracting.

Was The Italians before Italy: Conflict and Competition in the Mediterranean worth the listening time?

No. The material could have been summarized in a fraction of the time. Extremely repetitive and unnecessarily explanatory but using words like "of course" when presenting geographical and historical information a newcomwe to Italian history would not know.

Any additional comments?

This was so boring. I have listened to histories of China, Egypt, and Russia from the Great Courses and loved them. I drifted off multiple times listening to this. Also, his pronunciation and overuse of peninsula was irritating.

5 people found this helpful

Narration Flawed; Subject Matter Difficult

Professor Bartlett sounds like he's enduring a rather wearisome exercise. His tone is monotonous and he heaves great sighs periodically. In general, he does not appear to be engaged with, or excited by, his subject matter. (By contrast, Professor Tuck, who narrates The Mysterious Etruscans, sounds like he is having a wonderful time sharing his knowledge).
Separately, the course material is difficult to absorb. The details of the struggles in each city state at times are both tedious and overwhelming. Perhaps, because so many mini-histories comprise the history of Italy prior to the Risorgimento, it had to be this way. However, I'd like to believe that someone else could have made different choices in selecting and organising the course material.

4 people found this helpful

Dissapointing to irritating

I got this to have a better cultural context for a planned trip to Italy. I've already been through Will Durant's The Renaissance, which covers Italy exclusively. While this audio had some new information, and placed it in terms of regional history and attitudes, it also ends at the 15th century. I was hoping it would extend into the 19th century and feature figures on whom it's more difficult to get information, such as Garibaldi.

Three pronunciations drove me crazy. He constantly references the "Italian peninsula", which he pronounces as pen-in-shoo-lah. He also insists on giving Byzantine it's least used pronunciation with accent on the second syllable. He also pronounces schism as shiz-um. I'd suck it up on the latter two were he British, but he's only Canadian so they're only pretentious or wrong.

4 people found this helpful

Fascinating and well-organized lectures

Professor Bartlett is one of my favorites of the Great Courses lecturers. His presentations are. as usual. fascinating and detailed.

I particularly appreciate how well-thought out and organized each one is, sort of like an essay rather than just a speech. He has a very pleasant speaking voice and I often listen to these as I wind down in the evening.

I was also really interested in the topic after a trip to Italy. I had read a lot on ancient history but went to a museum presentation in Rome on Italian unification and I realized how little I knew about what happened in Italy between the "fall" of Rome and World War II! As someone else remarked, this would be good to listen to before a trip to Italy.

It would probably be good to know a bit about European history before you dive into this, and so I'm not sure this would be my first recommendation for a homeschooler or someone with little background in European events.

2 people found this helpful