Listen free for 30 days
-
Stranger Than We Can Imagine
- Making Sense of the Twentieth Century
- Narrated by: John Higgs
- Length: 11 hrs and 13 mins
- Unabridged Audiobook
- Categories: History
Add to basket failed.
Add to wishlist failed.
Remove from wishlist failed.
Follow podcast failed
Unfollow podcast failed
Listen with a free trial
Buy Now for £18.99
No valid payment method on file.
We are sorry. We are not allowed to sell this product with the selected payment method
Listeners also enjoyed...
-
The Future Starts Here
- An Optimistic Guide to What Comes Next
- By: John Higgs
- Narrated by: John Higgs
- Length: 12 hrs and 5 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
At some point in the 1980s we gave up on the future. Before then, we imagined wonderful days to come, free from disease, work and want, in television series like Star Trek or events such as the 1939 Futurama World Fair. When we look ahead now, we tell dystopian stories of environmental collapse, zombie plagues and the end of civilisation. If it is true that we have to imagine the future before we build it, then this is deeply worrying.
-
-
Hope with reasons
- By WH Humphreys on 05-07-19
-
Human Errors
- A Panorama of Our Glitches, From Pointless Bones to Broken Genes
- By: Nathan Lents
- Narrated by: L. J. Ganser
- Length: 7 hrs and 54 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
We like to think of ourselves as highly evolved creatures. But if we are evolution's greatest creation, why are we so badly designed? We have retinas that face backward, the stump of a tail, and way too many bones in our wrists. We must find vitamins and nutrients in our diets that other animals simply make for themselves. Millions of us can't reproduce successfully without help from modern science. We have nerves that take bizarre paths, muscles that attach to nothing, and lymph nodes that do more harm than good. And that's just the beginning of the story.
-
-
Fascinating
- By Sigrin on 21-06-19
-
William Blake vs the World
- By: John Higgs
- Narrated by: John Higgs
- Length: 11 hrs and 12 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
Poet, artist, visionary and author of the unofficial English national anthem 'Jerusalem', William Blake is an archetypal misunderstood genius. In this radical new biography, we return to a world of riots, revolutions and radicals, discuss movements from the Levellers of the sixteenth century to the psychedelic counterculture of the 1960s, and explore the latest discoveries in neurobiology, quantum physics and comparative religion to look afresh at Blake's life and work—and, crucially, his mind.
-
-
An Exceptionial Artist - A Wonderful Exposition
- By N. Walsh on 12-06-21
-
The KLF
- Chaos, Magic and the Band Who Burned a Million Pounds
- By: John Higgs
- Narrated by: John Higgs
- Length: 6 hrs and 51 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
The strange tale of the death, life and legacy of the hugely successful band. They were the best-selling singles band in the world. They had awards, credibility, commercial success and creative freedom. Then they deleted their records, erased themselves from musical history and burnt their last million pounds in a boathouse on the Isle of Jura. And they couldn't say why.
-
-
This book Is worth listening to several times
- By Michelle S. on 09-04-18
-
The Universe in Your Hand
- A Journey Through Space, Time and Beyond
- By: Christophe Galfard
- Narrated by: Leighton Pugh
- Length: 11 hrs and 41 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
Imagine if The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy were a real, practical book about the mysteries of the universe.... The Universe in Your Hand takes us on a wonder-filled journey to the surface of our dying sun, shrinks us to the size of an atom and puts us in the deathly grip of distant black holes. Along the way you might come to understand, really understand, the mind-bending science that underpins modern life, from quantum mechanics to Einstein's theory of general relativity.
-
-
Very good introduction to the subject
- By D. Robertson on 20-05-19
-
I'm a Joke and So Are You
- Reflections on Humour and Humanity
- By: Robin Ince
- Narrated by: Robin Ince
- Length: 7 hrs and 29 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
In this touching and witty book, award-winning presenter and comic Robin Ince uses the life of the stand-up as a way of exploring some of the biggest questions we all face. Where does anxiety come from? How do we overcome imposter syndrome? What is the key to creativity? How can we deal with grief? Informed by personal insights from Robin as well as interviews with some of the world's top comedians, neuroscientists and psychologists, this is a hilarious and often moving primer to the mind.
-
-
Wonderful.
- By pbar on 06-10-19
-
The Future Starts Here
- An Optimistic Guide to What Comes Next
- By: John Higgs
- Narrated by: John Higgs
- Length: 12 hrs and 5 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
At some point in the 1980s we gave up on the future. Before then, we imagined wonderful days to come, free from disease, work and want, in television series like Star Trek or events such as the 1939 Futurama World Fair. When we look ahead now, we tell dystopian stories of environmental collapse, zombie plagues and the end of civilisation. If it is true that we have to imagine the future before we build it, then this is deeply worrying.
-
-
Hope with reasons
- By WH Humphreys on 05-07-19
-
Human Errors
- A Panorama of Our Glitches, From Pointless Bones to Broken Genes
- By: Nathan Lents
- Narrated by: L. J. Ganser
- Length: 7 hrs and 54 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
We like to think of ourselves as highly evolved creatures. But if we are evolution's greatest creation, why are we so badly designed? We have retinas that face backward, the stump of a tail, and way too many bones in our wrists. We must find vitamins and nutrients in our diets that other animals simply make for themselves. Millions of us can't reproduce successfully without help from modern science. We have nerves that take bizarre paths, muscles that attach to nothing, and lymph nodes that do more harm than good. And that's just the beginning of the story.
-
-
Fascinating
- By Sigrin on 21-06-19
-
William Blake vs the World
- By: John Higgs
- Narrated by: John Higgs
- Length: 11 hrs and 12 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
Poet, artist, visionary and author of the unofficial English national anthem 'Jerusalem', William Blake is an archetypal misunderstood genius. In this radical new biography, we return to a world of riots, revolutions and radicals, discuss movements from the Levellers of the sixteenth century to the psychedelic counterculture of the 1960s, and explore the latest discoveries in neurobiology, quantum physics and comparative religion to look afresh at Blake's life and work—and, crucially, his mind.
-
-
An Exceptionial Artist - A Wonderful Exposition
- By N. Walsh on 12-06-21
-
The KLF
- Chaos, Magic and the Band Who Burned a Million Pounds
- By: John Higgs
- Narrated by: John Higgs
- Length: 6 hrs and 51 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
The strange tale of the death, life and legacy of the hugely successful band. They were the best-selling singles band in the world. They had awards, credibility, commercial success and creative freedom. Then they deleted their records, erased themselves from musical history and burnt their last million pounds in a boathouse on the Isle of Jura. And they couldn't say why.
-
-
This book Is worth listening to several times
- By Michelle S. on 09-04-18
-
The Universe in Your Hand
- A Journey Through Space, Time and Beyond
- By: Christophe Galfard
- Narrated by: Leighton Pugh
- Length: 11 hrs and 41 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
Imagine if The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy were a real, practical book about the mysteries of the universe.... The Universe in Your Hand takes us on a wonder-filled journey to the surface of our dying sun, shrinks us to the size of an atom and puts us in the deathly grip of distant black holes. Along the way you might come to understand, really understand, the mind-bending science that underpins modern life, from quantum mechanics to Einstein's theory of general relativity.
-
-
Very good introduction to the subject
- By D. Robertson on 20-05-19
-
I'm a Joke and So Are You
- Reflections on Humour and Humanity
- By: Robin Ince
- Narrated by: Robin Ince
- Length: 7 hrs and 29 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
In this touching and witty book, award-winning presenter and comic Robin Ince uses the life of the stand-up as a way of exploring some of the biggest questions we all face. Where does anxiety come from? How do we overcome imposter syndrome? What is the key to creativity? How can we deal with grief? Informed by personal insights from Robin as well as interviews with some of the world's top comedians, neuroscientists and psychologists, this is a hilarious and often moving primer to the mind.
-
-
Wonderful.
- By pbar on 06-10-19
-
Kindred
- By: Rebecca Wragg Sykes
- Narrated by: Rebecca Wragg Sykes
- Length: 16 hrs and 26 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
In Kindred, Neanderthal expert Becky Wragg Sykes shoves aside the cliché of the shivering ragged figure in an icy wasteland and reveals the Neanderthal you don’t know, who lived across vast and diverse tracts of Eurasia and survived through hundreds of thousands of years of massive climate change. Using a thematic rather than chronological approach, this book will shed new light on where they lived, what they ate and the increasingly complex Neanderthal culture that is being discovered.
-
-
Was this recorded inside a biscuit tin?
- By hhj on 31-05-21
-
The Complete Short Stories
- By: J. G. Ballard
- Narrated by: Ric Jerrrom, William Gaminara, Sean Barrett, and others
- Length: 63 hrs and 21 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
A collection of 98 enthralling and pulse-quickening stories, spanning five decades, venerates the remarkable imagination of J. G. Ballard. With a body of work unparalleled in twentieth-century literature, J. G. Ballard is recognized as one of the greatest and most prophetic writers in the world. With the much-hailed release of The Complete Stories of J. G. Ballard, readers now have a means to celebrate the unmatched range and mesmerizing cadences of a literary genius.
-
-
Excellent but badly put together
- By Lester Gabang on 10-02-17
-
Watling Street
- Travels Through Britain and Its Ever-Present Past
- By: John Higgs
- Narrated by: John Higgs
- Length: 12 hrs and 24 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
A journey along one of Britain's oldest roads, from Dover to Anglesey, in search of the hidden history that makes us who we are today. Long ago a path was created by the passage of feet tramping through endless forests. Gradually that path became a track, and the track became a road. It connected the White Cliffs of Dover to the Druid groves of the Welsh island of Anglesey, across a land that was first called Albion then Britain, Mercia and eventually England and Wales. Armies from Rome arrived and straightened this 444 kilometres of meandering track, which in the Dark Ages gained the name Watling Street.
-
-
too political
- By noodle on 20-09-19
-
A Brief History of the Samurai
- Brief Histories
- By: Jonathan Clements
- Narrated by: Jonathan Keeble
- Length: 12 hrs and 1 min
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
From a leading expert in Japanese history, this is one of the first full histories of the art and culture of the Samurai warrior. The Samurai emerged as a warrior caste in Medieval Japan and would have a powerful influence on the history and culture of the country from the next 500 years. Clements also looks at the Samurai wars that tore Japan apart in the 17th and 18th centuries and how the caste was finally demolished in the advent of the mechanized world.
-
-
Anecdotes bring life to samurai history
- By Tweetingcheetah on 27-07-14
-
Revelation
- Connecting with the Sacred in Everyday Life
- By: Russell Brand
- Narrated by: Russell Brand
- Length: 5 hrs and 17 mins
- Original Recording
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
Russell Brand takes a deep, earnest, yet witty dive into the meaning of life, death, and the sacred space in between in this compelling Audible Original.
-
-
Brand at his absolute best. Lots of words!
- By Martin Huxter on 26-03-21
-
No Requiem for the Space Age
- The Apollo Moon Landings and American Culture
- By: Matthew D. Tribbe
- Narrated by: Brian Troxell
- Length: 10 hrs and 14 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
During the summer of 1969 - the summer Americans first walked on the moon - musician and poet Patti Smith recalled strolling down the Coney Island Boardwalk to a refreshment stand, where "pictures of Jesus, President Kennedy, and the astronauts were taped to the wall behind the register." Such was the zeitgeist in the year of the moon. Yet this holy trinity of 1960s America would quickly fall apart.
-
The Workshop and the World
- What Ten Thinkers Can Teach Us About Science and Authority
- By: Robert P. Crease
- Narrated by: Jonathan Todd Ross
- Length: 9 hrs and 43 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
When does a scientific discovery become accepted fact? Why have scientific facts become easy to deny? And what can we do about it? In The Workshop and the World, philosopher and science historian Robert P. Crease answers these questions by describing the origins of our scientific infrastructure - the “workshop” - and the role of 10 of the world’s greatest thinkers in shaping it. As today’s politicians and government officials increasingly accuse scientists of dishonesty, conspiracy, and even hoaxes, engaged citizens wonder how we got to this level of distrust....
-
Science Friction
- Where the Known Meets the Unknown
- By: Michael Brant Shermer
- Narrated by: Michael Brant Shermer
- Length: 4 hrs and 50 mins
- Abridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
In each of the essays in Science Friction, Shermer explores the very personal barriers and biases that plague and propel science, especially when scientists push against the unknown. What do we know, and what do we not know? How does science respond to controversy, attack, and uncertainty? When does theory become accepted fact?
-
Genius
- Volume 1
- By: iMinds
- Narrated by: uncredited
- Length: 9 hrs and 31 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
iMinds Genius collection presents 72 iMinds knowledge grabs, offering six titles across each of the 12 main categories of knowledge. With iMinds, knowledge is on-demand to learn what you want when you want it. Whet your appetite and broaden your mind. Each title represents a self contained track of engaging information. Learn about a diverse range of topics from film noir to the Last Supper, déjà vu to the discovery of penicillin.
-
The Forest
- By: Edward Rutherfurd
- Narrated by: Roger Davis
- Length: 33 hrs and 45 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
Few places lie closer to the heart of the nation's heritage than the New Forest. Now, Edward Rutherfurd weaves its history and legends into compelling fiction. From the mysterious killing of King William Rufus, treachery and witchcraft, smuggling and poaching run through this epic tale of well-born ladies, lowly woodsmen, sailors, merchants and Cistercian monks. The feuds, wars, loyalties and passions of generations reach their climax in a crime that shatters the decorous society of Jane Austen's Bath.
-
-
BEST BOOK EVER
- By fiona c cross on 28-02-19
-
Levels of Life
- By: Julian Barnes
- Narrated by: Julian Barnes
- Length: 3 hrs and 10 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
'You put together two things that have not been put together before. And the world is changed...' Julian Barnes's new book is about ballooning, photography, love and grief; about putting two things, and two people, together, and about tearing them apart. One of the judges who awarded him the 2011 Man Booker Prize described him as 'an unparalleled magus of the heart'. This book confirms that opinion.
-
-
The tropics of grief
- By Paul S. Turner on 20-07-14
-
The Secret Listeners
- How the Y Service Intercepted the Secret German Codes for Bletchley Park
- By: Sinclair McKay
- Narrated by: Gordon Griffin
- Length: 12 hrs and 33 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
Before Bletchley Park could break the German war machine’s code, its daily military communications had to be monitored and recording by "the Listening Service" - the wartime department whose bases moved with every theatre of war: Cairo, Malta, Gibraltar, Iraq, Cyprus, as well as having listening stations along the eastern coast of Britain to intercept radio traffic in the European theatre. This is the story of the - usually very young - men and women sent out to far-flung outposts to listen in for Bletchley Park, an oral history of exotic locations and ordinary lives turned upside down by a sudden remote posting.
-
-
The Wartime "Listeners" for the Codebreakers
- By Dinah on 31-12-13
Summary
The 20th century should make sense. It's the period of history that we know the most about, an epic geopolitical narrative that runs through World War One, the Great Depression, World War Two, the American century and the fall of the Berlin Wall.
But somehow that story doesn't quite lead into the world we find ourselves in now, this bewildering 21st century, adrift in a network of constant surveillance, unsustainable competition, tsunamis of trivia and extraordinary opportunity.
Time, then, for a new perspective. With John Higgs as our guide, we step off the main path and wander through some of the more curious backwaters of the 20th century, exploring familiar and unfamiliar territory alike, finding fresh insight on our journey to the present day. We travel in the company of some of the most radical artists, scientists, geniuses and crazies of their age.
They show us that great innovations such as relativity, cubism, quantum mechanics, postmodernism and chaos maths are not the incomprehensible, abstract horrors that we assume them to be but signposts that bring us to the world we live in now.
John Higgs brings us an alternative history of the strangest of centuries. He shows us how the elegant, clockwork universe of the Victorians became increasingly woozy and uncertain; and how we discovered that our world is not just stranger than we imagine but, in the words of Sir Arthur Eddington, "stranger than we can imagine".
Critic reviews
More from the same
What listeners say about Stranger Than We Can Imagine
Average customer ratingsReviews - Please select the tabs below to change the source of reviews.
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
- J. Drew
- 25-03-20
A wild ride through the twentieth century - hop on board
What a crazy trip the 20th century was but I’m quite glad I was a part of it. It began with 1.3 billion people on the planet and ended with 7 billion. We could barely fly and imagining going to the moon was as fanciful as believing we could time travel yet by 1969 we had walked on it, from when a few elitist Tsars, Emperors and kings ruled over the masses and a few elitist rulers controlled so much of the world and then in a few years this would disappear and become replaced by, well what? When paternal rule turned into women’s liberation and attitudes to sex changed beyond all belief. This book covers a small section of ideas and events that turned into the craziest century so far in man's brief moment on planet earth. It describes existentialism as a bit like wandering around an art gallery in the dark not seeing what's there. However, if we only turn on the lights, even if life is meaningless, there is still wonder and beauty and marvels all around. Sometimes you need to turn on a light to become aware of the beauty and art and wonder that is all around you rather than keeping the lights off or your eyes closed.
The book begins with Einstein and his 4 incredible science papers (whilst a clerk in Bern) and also the start of science becoming much more than just the science itself but also becoming aware of the act of the observer, and so it is with understanding the self and philosophy, that sometimes in order for the world to change, we need to change. As William Blake said "about the eye changing in order for the world to change.”
The story of the Russian scientist Korolev who founded the space program in Russia after having survived the Gulags where he was in turn for a made up trumped up charge under the paranoia of communism and Stalin is the most fascinating story that is told in this book. Korolov, once free, kept the soviet space race ahead of the USA and then he died - sometimes one man can make a real difference. The exploration of space is another fascinating chapter. The book then moves on to the subject of sex where we moved from paternal repression to women's liberation via the interesting story of Marie Stopes, both a force for good regarding sexual liberation and the holder of some very extremely unpleasant ideas, through Lady Chatterley's lover and other court cases, and then finally liberation in the form of Germaine Greer’s ‘the female eunuch’. The subject is fascinating and a real show at the changes that have occurred over the 20th century regarding our attitudes and behaviours towards sex.
The teenage years begin with the visceral thrill of ‘tutti-frutti’ by little Richard and then move through rock 'n' roll to the amazing work of the Rolling Stones and the Beatles and their different philosophies in changing teenage mood. It also looks at how teenagers became a term first coined in the 1940’s to change in behaviours and a sense of self.
The life expectancy of an average man at the beginning of the century was 46 and for a woman 50 by the end of the 20th century it had risen to over 70, workers rights, healthcare, civil rights movement, women’s rights all significantly change even attitudes towards homosexuality. But in Hitler, Stalin and Mao and other despots and dictators we had horrific genocide and crimes against humanity against people – and began with two world wars and then an equally horrific second half of the century under the horrors of the Cold War. And then we all became reliant on the Internet. And we all became connected which seems to have created as much polarisation and division than we imagined.
The book covers the subjects of relativity, modernism, war, individualism, the id, uncertainty, Science fiction, realism, space, sex, teenagers, chaos, growth, post-modernism and networking. The book also explores our certainties of reality, and how we’ve all made so many different types of reality. And as we’ve moved into the age of misinformation, control and data collection, a final lesson that we will learn is it is the context of our environment that shapes our reasoning, thoughts and behaviours. “Where once we regulated our behaviour out of fear of punishment by our Lord and master, now we adjust our actions in response to the buzzing cloud of verbal judgements from thousands of people. We are still free to choose our own path through society, in a way that we never were in the days of emperors, but we do have to take responsibility for our choices… Those raised in the twentieth century were perhaps unprepared for the amount of cynicism, tribal hatred and cruelty that you encounter every day on the internet.” We have moved away from hierarchical control where emperors, despots, dictators and rulers controlled the masses to everyone has a say but it comes at a cost also - and big corporations are trying to control the Internet. A quote and study by Alex Pentland, ‘It is time that we dropped the fiction of individuals as the unit of rationality, and recognised that our rationality is largely determined by the surrounding social fabric. Instead of being actors in markets, we are collaborators in determining the public good.’ An interesting study by Pentlandite cited in the book looking at mobile phones and from weight gain to political voting behaviours is not determined or decided by willpower, rational thought or free will but by our peers around us. As Pentland states ‘The single biggest factor driving adoption of new behaviours was the behaviour of peers. Put another way, the effects of this implicit social learning were roughly the same size as the influence of your genes on your behaviour, or your IQ on your academic performance.’
It’s a really illuminating and brilliant read.
14 people found this helpful
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
- J
- 24-02-17
Not to be missed
I loved this book from start to finish. It's educational and thought provoking. By providing a comprehensive account of significant changes in politics, economics, science, power, philosophy, music and more during the twentieth century, the reader is provided with new perspectives and a fascinating insight into our own place on the planet and in the timeline of recent human history during a period of strange and significant change. Do yourself a favour - read (or listen) to this book!
8 people found this helpful
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
- Howard
- 07-09-15
Tour through our times.
Higgs has done an excellent job of making sense of the last Century from a Western perspective. Insightful, fun and thought provoking. I recommend you listen, learn and above all enjoy.
5 people found this helpful
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
- Neil Spencer Bruce
- 09-09-19
Required listening for everyone!
Loved this book and was sad when it finished. I have shared it with so many people. The tone, the content, the narration were fantastic. I have now downloaded all of John Higgs' other books!
3 people found this helpful
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
- Amazon Customer
- 06-06-16
Exceptional view point
This book works wonders on the mind, if you already enjoy looking at things differently and not buying into the programming of society and history then you will love it. If however you are not used to that mode of questioning the World yet would like to change the way you seek and find answers and interpret things this will be a most suitable starting place.
If you are a bit Greyface it might be best to step away in case you get a bit shaken from exposure to a unique and fantastically written book laden with humour and insight.
3 people found this helpful
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
- Md Lachlan
- 29-02-16
Fascinating, clear and amusing
The interaction among science, culture and the arts. I have read much of his source material but it was very useful to have it all brought together in one book with all the parallels and interactions pointed out.
3 people found this helpful
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
- Maria M.
- 09-01-22
Brilliant listen
Loved the narrative (and narration!) of the author, with cultural, scientific, societal, economic and political aspects intertwined into an enlightening grand perspective of the 20th century
2 people found this helpful
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
- Karen
- 07-01-22
Brilliant
Im going straight back to the beginning and listening again. so interesting. Full of fact, history and events and how, through the 20th century, they have played out to get us to where we are today. challenging and a bit depressing. especially for those of us who grew up I the late 20th century but ends with hope and a fresh take on the path ahead in the 21st century. This was obviously written pre-pandemic and the quote about unpredictable times ahead was not wrong! Worth a go if you are intetested in the path of the human race and historical events.
2 people found this helpful
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
- Marko
- 05-11-21
Entertaining perspective
Fabulous joining of art, science and psychology into an entertaining review of how our lives and perspectives have changed over the last century. One of the best listens in over 100 books
2 people found this helpful
-
Overall
- Patrick Horan
- 01-08-21
Highly recommend
This book on the 20th century has unexpectedly refocused my understanding of the subject. It is superbly narrated and whilst drawing on well known turning points in the century, it weaves them into a narrative whose nuances for me at least were revelatory. This book gave me great pleasure and I would highly recommend for anyone.
2 people found this helpful